Revision as of 18:13, 11 May 2014

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New Tour pages Sample page made

I made a new sample page for individual Tour dates: Sample_Pages:Tour_dates. This page can be found from the main page/Interact/help desk/Marilyn Manson Wiki category page or on special pages/Categories/Sample pages. cc: User:Scarshock & User:MAFF'L

hi Sumer. just a question: since i've tried to play with some MediaWiki features like loops, who can I address to install this extension? i'd like to make some more experiments with templates like {{Setlist}} and {{Lineup}} (scarshock (talk) 18:50, 8 April 2014 (CEST))

Added a guideline page for category hierarchies: Sample_Pages:Category_Hierarchies. Scarshock, at this time your request needs to go to User: Harlequin or User:Litso i.e. adding wiki extension:Loops.

Some new templates

hi Sumer. i've recently introduced two simple templates: {{UnknownSetlist}} and {{CitationNeeded}}. the first one is similar to functionality provided by the {{stub}} template -- simply says that the setlist is unknown. the second one uniforms the "citation needed" phrase appearance and uses MediaWiki words to put the revision day/month/year when the template is used, so it's clear when the citation has been requested for the first time (as it said in the documentation, these magic words are expensive from the technical point of view, but i don't know how to make a performance benchmark for it, and i didn't observe any slowdowns, etc) (scarshock (talk) 14:27, 5 May 2014 (CEST))

Thank you Scarshock! Greatly appreciated. I saw the Citation one and started using it. the UnknownSetlist is a great idea, as I don't believe in putting one on a page unless it can be sourced. I have a concern over the performance template for tour pages you made. It doesn't say Country on it and also when I try to add a reference to it, wiki won't allow the reference number on the same line. Perhaps a work around would be to make another sentence of some kind under it and put the reference on it.

I was just thinking of a template for the unmade tour pages. I think it's confusing to not make a listed tour page just because there's no vids/photos/audios/posters for it. I believe we should make the page and have a template/stub that says something like "This page was made based on the date being included on a tour list, however there is no record of it happening. You can help the Manson Wiki by providing a reference." or one of the 'this is a stub page' templates. Do you have that template? I can't find it. The [[index.php?title=Category:Template Category templates page is so full of every page a template was ever used on, I can't separate the real templates from them all. cc: user:Harlequin Sumer (talk) 22:23, 5 May 2014 (CEST)

sorry Sumer, i don't really understand what you're facing with using the {{Template:AboutPerformance}} (as far as i see, you are talking about this MediaWiki template). %) could you please provide both the code you try to use and the expected result? i hope this helps me to troubleshoot it. thanks in advance. concerning the unmade tour pages. i guess, that it could be still under some debates. we usually didn't create such pages, and it was like some kind of a TODO list: if the according page doesn't exist, then no info on it is available for any reason. it always could be still mentioned in a tour or tour leg excerpt article -- so we always knew that something is missing but unavailable so far. i'd like to create pages for the performances only if, at least, a setlist or valuable trivia (or probably medialinks) are available, so we could to keep the "TODO-style" (scarshock (talk) 23:20, 5 May 2014 (CEST))

with Harlequin's help on installing the necessary parser extensions, i managed to implement the very first draft version of the setlist template. as usual: the setlist data-only model is specified using the template, and the view is rendered using the rules in the template, so we can change the style of the setlist at any page where the template is used whenever we want. it also supports intro and outro parameters, so currently they both are rendered using indents (actually speaking, i'm not sure if this is good style though, and probably we'll find a good style for it someday). i'd be happy if you'd test it, if there's opportunity for it (like creating a new tour date page or so), and give a feedback on possible template improvements. thanks! (scarshock (talk) 00:40, 6 May 2014 (CEST))

Well now it's working: The_Marilyn_Manson_Wiki:Sandbox Before I couldn't get the reference number to be on the same line as the sentence. But can we add country to template? I could do it if I go to that template's page.

I tested the setlist template there, I don't think it's working? You might want to get Harlequin to help you with it.

I also put the unconfirmed setlist template on the sandbox to see what it looks like and it says 'The setlist for this performance remains unknown. You can help MansonWiki by providing the setlist.' I would ask Harlequin about that, too. That's almost an invite to fill it in with no reference of where they got it from. Sumer (talk) 07:42, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

extra lines breaks
extra line break might have appeared due to MediaWiki engine template processing specifics -- i don't really know, but i don't seem to fix it, but if it works -- then it's good. :)

AboutPerformance template state and country parameters
the AboutPerformance also template supports both state and country parameters, but it supports abbreviations only. the reason of such behavior is that parsing two-letter codes is simpler and can be automated for more flexibility (like country flags). here are the possible keys for the state parameter (uppercase only) and traditionally ANSI/USPS is the only supported abbreviations, and here you find country top-level domain codes (lowercase only). the AboutPerformance template parameter supports almost all "green" domain codes, sure, but it's enough so far. there's a little defect with the template: if you specify a state only, not country, then an extra whitespace character is rendered before the last dot character -- i'll fix this tiny defect soon

Setlist template
the setlist template usage was a little in a wrong way -- i've just removed the enclosing tags from the sandbox page

UnknownSetlist template message
regarding unknown setlists. yes, that's true. but this also follows the way the stub template renders: "This article is a stub. You can help MansonWiki by expanding it, or perhaps you could contribute to a discussion on the topic." this is commonly how lacking info is requested at Wikipedia too. how we can prevent unreferenced setlists: i also track unpatrolled edits from untrusted/unprivileged (technically speaking, not admin or senior editor role users) users and i always try to keep an eye. once such info is provided, the CitationNeeded template could be put over that edit. at least i don't know a way how to ask new-comers to put the CitationNeeded template themselves (i guess it's almost impossible due to several reasons of user-friendliness). or probably Harlequin or M1shael have good ideas on that.

please see this permalink or the diffs to see how those templates can be used (scarshock (talk) 08:20, 6 May 2014 (CEST))

I see the setlist fix. Thanks! Would like Harlequin's okay on it. The About template, it seems we've been adding USA onto the American ones, and also there's Canada. So it should be, Venue in City, State, USA and for Canada: Venue in City, Providence, Canada. (Vancouver, in British Columbia, Canada) for example. Sumer (talk) 08:59, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

very nice point, thanks, i missed that and i see it now. i guess that one of possible solutions could be enhancing the "state" parameter values despite state is not a real province (so it's just a technical requirement), like | state = ca:BC where ca is Canada top-level domain code, and BC could be interpreted as British Columbia in this case. which countries have we also consider except of U.S. and Canada? scarshock (talk) 09:13, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

FYI, http://www.mansonwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:AboutPerformance&oldid=83439#Improvements_proposal scarshock (talk) 13:05, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

Hi guys, regarding the need to create a page for a date with out having any real information to put on it. Scarshock is right, it's usually been accepted that if the date is in our list of tour dates, then the date was recorded as having been listed somewhere. If the page has yet to be created, then it's usually been the common perception that no information was/has been available to create the page. The wiki/mediawiki is designed to be like that where a grey link to a yet to be created page is a suggestion/indication that the page is required/wanted/suggested to be included on the site, but waiting either for information or someone to do it. I feel a stub is kind of overkill and creating a lot of empty pages with no information, also creating a lot of work to put in place where as a simple grey link to a yet to be created page pretty much indicates that the page needs information.

I like the idea of the set list template, nice work! One concern I have though is wanting to avoid complicating editing for a person who isn't familiar. I don't think this will, but it's something to keep in mind. We want people to be able to edit/add to the site without having to think too much about it.Harlequin (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

scarshock(talk), The way I'm understanding the About template a person would have to know the correct abbreviations for state/country in order for it to work. Not sure of any other instances but we could fix as we come across them. A look at the later tours could probably help with that. Sumer (talk) 18:35, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

yes, that's right: a person should have knowledge on it, but it's easy because the state codes appear in the tour date page title. that's not applicable for countries, sure, but i guess it can be maintained by more experienced users. you can compare it with the flags template -- they need codes too. this is justified in both cases as long as it's short and clear, and technically easy to maintain in templates (scarshock (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2014 (CEST))

Harlequin (talk), we have the help desk on the main page, we could add a link of the setlists/about templates to it. I see they've been added to the Tour Date sample page. Sample_Pages:Tour_dates, however the having to know the correct abbreviations may prove frustrating for the average user. This is a nice tool for staff, however I see nothing wrong with one continuing to use a straight sentence as long as the page appears the same as those using a template. I was telling Scarshock that the category template page is full of every single page a template was ever used on. Is there a way for it to not do that? When I go to category:templates, I'd like to just see a list of templates. Sumer (talk) 18:35, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

MediaWiki template syntax is a little more complicated than regular wiki markup, that's really true, but as long as it gives benefits, it should be paid for: just follow the MediaWiki templates syntax. templates are great: the appearance of the result can be restyled once for all pages simply with one edit, and that's incredibly powerful. from what i noticed here for really long time, when new people add new tour dates, typically are: 1) they usually add a blank page and then fill it with some basic info, usually the performance setlist only, not caring any guidelines at all -- no any categories, templates, sections, or even basic markup -- simple raw and unformatted text as it can appear; 2) senior editors, admins or just people who stay around and take care always patrol such edits, and then align those "raw" pages to the traditional style established by the MW community; 3) the same story is for the {{Tourdate}} template -- if new people use it, they copy it from a good article, or just even do not use it; 4) introducing the template wouldn't mean "hey you must use it", it's just a powerful recommendation, and new people can still use "good old" way using #-lists and so on; 5) maybe something else, but can't recall so far. (scarshock (talk) 19:07, 6 May 2014 (CEST))

Very true about the being able to edit all at the same time for templates. Have to be careful about edit all it may cause unwanted changes. I'm in POAF tour dates editing. If I should go back and edit all previous with new templates I need to know now. Sumer (talk) 19:14, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

the full migrating to the new templates is extremely hard and extremely tedious. let's make it in the following way: if you want to create new pages, try/test the Template:Setlist only, and just give a feedback. what if it's not usable at all or gives bad results? :P a feedback would be very appreciated. regarding the Template:AboutPerformance: i'm about to improve it, because Harlequin has installed the necessary extension, and i'm going to rework it tonight having some free time. let me implement and check the Template:AboutPerformance first. would it be fine for you? (scarshock (talk) 19:25, 6 May 2014 (CEST))

Yes, I'll wait, let me know when done. Sumer (talk) 20:39, 6 May 2014 (CEST)

i've just finished struggling with annoying whitespaces, and the template source code has gone to mess, but it seems to work. here: Template_talk:AboutPerformance#Test (scarshock (talk) 00:29, 7 May 2014 (CEST))

Just answering Sumer here from the crew discussion. Yes, go ahead with the set list template and the about performance template as Scarshock has suggested by testing on newly created pages and feedback as to usability. Regarding the stub template ("This page was made based on the date being included on a tour list, however there is no record of it happening.") I'd like a little more discussion. Personally, I feel if there's no record of it happening and no information available to create a page then there's no point in a stub, it would be misleading as well as generating a lot of work to put in place for very little purpose. The fact the page has yet to be created is enough of an indication and if there is no record of a performance happening, then a page should not be created at all.Harlequin (talk) 04:07, 7 May 2014 (CEST)

(scarshock(talk), Harlequin (talk), 1995/03/09_Winston-Salem,_NC Page update with About template. City, State, Country works. Do we want 'The United States of America, or just USA? Also see how the reference number won't stay on same lines as sentence? Sidenote: Would like reference for setlist/photo gallery on this page. I saw that photoset somewhere else but now not sure where. did a search by image and got tumblr/marilynmansonimages that only is displaying one as an example of a POAF tour era example. I see nothing that says for sure the images are for that show. perhaps some of the undated but from the tour images could go on the main page. Sumer (talk) 09:28, 7 May 2014 (CEST)

yes, i've just seen the defect for line breaks. that's annoying, and i hope to fix it soon. regarding United States of America vs USA -- i can easily change it, it's just a matter of style (scarshock (talk) 09:35, 7 May 2014 (CEST))

I prefer USA. Just removed the line break tag from between the template and the reference, the reference is now on the same line and it looks fine here now? o_O Harlequin (talk) 10:18, 7 May 2014 (CEST)

ha, i thought that my madness with includeonly/noinclude directives in the template has broken the line break, and i didn't even consider to take a look into the tour date page :D thanks :D i've just changed "United States of America" to "USA" (scarshock (talk) 10:30, 7 May 2014 (CEST))

Onward ho! (Old American saying) So then I should go back and change to templates on Early Tours before continuing on? If all is set, new templates should be added to Tour Date sample page and I might delete/archive all this tread to keep my discussion page clean and current. Sumer (talk) 18:02, 7 May 2014 (CEST)

let me try to implement the {{Lineup}} template first. i'm not sure if this even possible though (MediaWiki is very weak in "programming"), but i'd like to try so we'd use templates for the lineups too... i have to ask Harlequin to add two more extensions scarshock (talk) 10:58, 8 May 2014 (CEST)

Okay, let me know. Sumer (talk) 18:14, 8 May 2014 (CEST)

i was wrong concerning the requested extensions i wanted to be installed. none of them were necessary, because i managed it to work using what we had earlier in much easier manner. as usual, since it's a template, we are able to change the appearance of the result the way we want anytime for all pages. here it is: http://www.mansonwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Lineup&oldid=83622 scarshock (talk) 20:13, 11 May 2014 (CEST)

Lo Maximo Awards

were May 3, not May 5 as shown on the main page here and on MansonWiki Twitter account

Thank you for the correction! It was indeed May 3. HomeboyIndustries facebook FYI, it is customary to sign discussion notes. Sumer (talk) 21:45, 8 May 2014 (CEST)