Editing Talk:Marilyn Manson lyrics and tablature

{{talkheader}}

==TABLATURE NOTICE==
Please use discretion when adding guitar or bass tablature, Users adding tabs should know how to play the given instrument so that they are able to test out the tablature before adding to the Archive. Simply put, if you do not know what note corresponds to the open string, or common tunings then you probably shouldn't post tablature. 


'''Manson Wiki Administration'''

== Current poor markup ==
Check that section indexes are pinned to the right-side, at least in Google Chrome. I can't understand why you use complicated HTML/CSS markup float-property-based technique without complete understanding of its purpose. Remove redundant &lt;br&gt; tags, use simple HTML/Wiki tables to show guitar/bass/etc tabs in tabular manner, etc. I think that the following table manner is much better (reducing ammount of exact title occurances, simplifying the markup, etc):

''' Sample '''

{| border="0" style="width: 100%;"
|-
| rowspan="12" valign="top" style="width: 230px;" | [[Image:Portrait-of-an-American-Family.jpg|180px|left|link=Portrait of an American Family (album)|]]
| [[Cake and Sodomy]]
| [[Tablature:Cake and Sodomy#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Cake and Sodomy#Bass|bass]]
|-
| style="width: 320px;" | [[Lunchbox]]
| style="width: 120px;" | [[Tablature:Lunchbox#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Lunchbox#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Organ Grinder]]
| [[Tablature:Organ Grinder#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Organ Grinder#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Cyclops]]
| [[Tablature:Cyclops#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Cyclops#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Dope Hat]]
| [[Tablature:Dope Hat#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Dope Hat#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Get Your Gunn]]
| [[Tablature:Get Your Gunn#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Get Your Gunn#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Wrapped in Plastic]]
| [[Tablature:Wrapped in Plastic#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Wrapped in Plastic#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Dogma]]
| [[Tablature:Dogma#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Dogma#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Sweet Tooth]]
| [[Tablature:Sweet Tooth#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Sweet Tooth#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Snake Eyes and Sissies]]
| [[Tablature:Snake Eyes and Sissies#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Snake Eyes and Sissies#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[My Monkey]]
| [[Tablature:My Monkey#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:My Monkey#Bass|bass]]
|-
| [[Misery Machine]]
| [[Tablature:Misery Machine#Guitar|guitar]]
| [[Tablature:Misery Machine#Bass|bass]]
|}

''' Sample Source '''

    <nowiki>{| border="0" style="width: 100%;"</nowiki>
    <nowiki>|-</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| rowspan="12" valign="top" style="width: 230px;" | [[Image:Portrait-of-an-American-Family.jpg|180px|left|link=Portrait of an American Family (album)|]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| [[Cake and Sodomy]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| [[Guitar Tablature: Cake and Sodomy|guitar]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| [[Bass Tablature: Cake and Sodomy|bass]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>|-</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| style="width: 120px;" | [[Lunchbox]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| style="width: 120px;" | [[Guitar Tablature: Lunchbox|guitar]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| [[Bass Tablature: Lunchbox|bass]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki></nowiki>
    <nowiki>...</nowiki>
    <nowiki></nowiki>
    <nowiki>|-</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| [[Misery Machine]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| [[Guitar Tablature: Misery Machine|guitar]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>| [[Bass Tablature: Misery Machine|bass]]</nowiki>
    <nowiki>|}</nowiki>

And the last note: the &lt;br&gt; tag is self-closed so the correct syntax is &lt;br<span style="color: red;">/</span>&gt;. ([[User:Scarshock|scarshock]] 08:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC))

:Aesthetically, I prefer it as is. I prefer to see a song title twice rather than the word bass or guitar repeatedly listed.  Though I appreciate that I'm not the only visitor to this site, so would appreciate the input of others. If your version is more accepted over the existing, we'll go with it :) [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡]] 08:58, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

My thoughts are that when you post all the albums together as they currently are you are going to have a massive row of guitar bass
I don't mind the idea of a table, however I think it would be best with the song listed twice in one column for bass and one for guitar as it is now. I don't see the problem in Chrome which is the only browser I use, Could you take a screen shot?
The problem i see with listing the words guitar & bass 15 times in a row is that I think a lot of people would wind up either clicking the wrong song or having to trace their finger across the screen to ensure they were picking the correct tab. 


Here's an example of when you post the eight albums together, as you can see the words bass and guitar become overwhelming and thus harder to navigate imo

{| border="0" style="width: 100%;"
|-
| rowspan="12" valign="top" style="width: 230px;" | [[Image:Portrait-of-an-American-Family.jpg|180px|left|link=Portrait of an American Family (album)|]]
| [[Cake and Sodomy]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| style="width: 320px;" | [[Lunchbox]]
| style="width: 120px;" | guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Organ Grinder]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Cyclops]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Dope Hat]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Get Your Gunn]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Wrapped in Plastic]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Dogma]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Sweet Tooth]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Snake Eyes and Sissies]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[My Monkey]]
| guitar
| bass
|-
| [[Misery Machine]]
| guitar
| bass
|}

::Here is the [http://yfrog.com/4j36611292p screenshot]. The green-marked header is perfect, but the red-marked header is broken probably because of using the "float" CSS property. This was about markup issues (I didn't test it in Firefox, Opera, etc). And now about usability. The following wiki-based sample (using alternate rows) is similar to the structure used on 911Tabs, and (but I'm not sure) similar to the tablature sections structure used at MansonUSA.
{| border="0" style="width: 100%;" cellspacing="0"
| rowspan="21" valign="top" style="width: 230px;" | [[Image:HolyWood(InTheShadowOfTheValleyOfDeath).jpg|180px|left|link=Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death)|]] 
<pre><nowiki>
{{Alternating rows table section|os=background-color:#C6D6E6|es=background-color:#D6E6E9;
| {{!}} [[GodEatGod]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: GodEatGod|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: GodEatGod|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: GodEatGod|keyboard]]
{{!!}} &mdash;
| {{!}} [[The Love Song]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: The Love Song|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: The Love Song|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: The Love Song|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: The Love Song|drums]]
| {{!}} [[The Fight Song]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: The Fight Song|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: The Fight Song|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: The Fight Song|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: The Fight Song|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Disposable Teens]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Disposable Teens|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Disposable Teens|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Disposable Teens|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Disposable Teens|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Target Audience (Narcissus Narcosis)]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Target Audience (Narcissus Narcosis)|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Target Audience (Narcissus Narcosis)|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Target Audience (Narcissus Narcosis)|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Target Audience (Narcissus Narcosis)|drums]]
| {{!}} [["President Dead"]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: "President Dead"|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: "President Dead"|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: "President Dead"|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: "President Dead"|drums]]
| {{!}} [[In the Shadow of the Valley of Death]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: In the Shadow of the Valley of Death|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: In the Shadow of the Valley of Death|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: In the Shadow of the Valley of Death|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: In the Shadow of the Valley of Death|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Cruci-Fiction in Space]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Cruci-Fiction in Space|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Cruci-Fiction in Space|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Cruci-Fiction in Space|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Cruci-Fiction in Space|drums]]
| {{!}} [[A Place in the Dirt]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: A Place in the Dirt|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: A Place in the Dirt|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: A Place in the Dirt|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: A Place in the Dirt|drums]]
| {{!}} [[The Nobodies]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: The Nobodies|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: The Nobodies|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: The Nobodies|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: The Nobodies|drums]]
| {{!}} [[The Death Song]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: The Death Song|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: The Death Song|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: The Death Song|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: The Death Song|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Lamb of God]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Lamb of God|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Lamb of God|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Lamb of God|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Lamb of God|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Born Again]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Born Again|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Born Again|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Born Again|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Born Again|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Burning Flag]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Burning Flag|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Burning Flag|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Burning Flag|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Burning Flag|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Coma Black]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Coma Black|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Coma Black|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Coma Black|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Coma Black|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Valentine's Day]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: Valentine's Day|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: Valentine's Day|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Valentine's Day|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: Valentine's Day|drums]]
| {{!}} [[The Fall of Adam]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: The Fall of Adam|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: The Fall of Adam|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: The Fall of Adam|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: The Fall of Adam|drums]]
| {{!}} [[King Kill 33°]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: King Kill 33°|guitar]]
{{!!}} [[Bass Tablature: King Kill 33°|bass]]
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: King Kill 33°|keyboard]]
{{!!}} [[Drum Tablature: King Kill 33°|drums]]
| {{!}} [[Count to Six and Die (The Vacuum of Infinite Space Encompassing)]]
{{!!}} &mdash;
{{!!}} &mdash;
{{!!}} [[Keyboard Tablature: Count to Six and Die (The Vacuum of Infinite Space Encompassing)|keyboard]]
{{!!}} &mdash;
| {{!}} [[The Nobodies|The Nobodies (Acoustic)]]
{{!!}} [[Guitar Tablature: The Nobodies (Acoustic)|guitar]]
{{!!}} &mdash;
{{!!}} &mdash;
{{!!}} &mdash;
}}
|}
</nowiki></pre>
::Currently I don't know how to change the width of each column. ([[User:Scarshock|scarshock]] 13:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC))

:::Neither of us have the problem in chrome. But in regards to the table, I think we are going to have to wait until after we get the new design up because the colours in the table are going to have to match the colour scheme that we are using. i know people are wondering when/ if ever the new design is coming, however rest assured it won't be long at all. ;) [[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed]] 14:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
::::The blue colour scheme of the table has been chosen randomly just to show the alternate rows for tablature table. Sure, it must be changed when the wiki gets redesigned. So what about usability for multiple "guitar", "bass", "keyboard" and "drums" hyperlinks in the alternate rows? ([[User:Scarshock|scarshock]] 14:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC))
:::I've checked in Chrome and IE and still don't see what you're seeing? o_O However, I agree with Gs it's probably best to wait for the redesign as blue just isn't going to work :p [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡]] 14:05, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Perhaps you use 16:9 displays and all page content completely fits the window... I don't know... ([[User:Scarshock|scarshock]] 14:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC))

== Spooky Kids ==

There are also articles on the tabalture for spooky kid songs, and I would add them myself but I'm inexperienced and don't want to mess up the article.

==Page Changes==

Sorry guys but it's my personal opinion that this page now looks like shit! Why was this page changed without discussion first?[[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 22:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
*I agree something major like this should have been discussed. It makes the section look cheap as well. The point is to make the site ''not'' look like a run of the mill Wikia site.[[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 22:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

How is it "rude as fuck," and why did it look like shit? Just adjust the width. We don't need all these pictures of albums everywhere. The last section is absurd, what actually defines rarities? What does it matter if it's a b-side? Just classifiy it under the album to which it actually belongs. My writeup was far more to the point than this version of the page, and the "How to Read Tablature" you want in place looks like absolute shit. What's worse is it can't be tampered with according to its author (without his approval, which is probably impossible to get 11 years later). A lot of the tabs aren't even linked to properly (Theater, President Dead, etc), and the columns are often fucked. A chart will suffice. I don't see how it could possibly be opposed. <span style="background:#000000">[[User:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#DEB887;">'''Alden Weston'''</span>]] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#7BA05B;">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 22:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Why must you make everything look like a cheap Wikia? Why do you think that people didn't visit the site as frequently as they do now? People want something that looks nice and is clean, Not some generic chart after chart. There was absolutely nothing wrong wit the way we have had the tablature section, which mind you did not even exist until we created it. I'm not going to sacrifice the time spent as well as the aesthetic of it just because it doesn't fit into idea of what a  WIKI should look like. 
[[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 23:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

:::: Granted with the "how to read tabs" section. Granted, too with the B sides etc, but the rest was aesthetically pleasing, and easier to read. The table, for me, is very difficult to read. "Yes, NO, Yes" etc. The whole idea of the redesign was to help the site NOT look like wikipedia, opening a page and being confronted with a huge table just turns me off. I don't want to look at it, I don't want to deal with it. While a table might be more organised for record keeping or personal use, this page is supposed to be attractive too, a table just simply isn't. Its the difference between having a simple wooden stool to sit on or a comfortable arm chair, the page is supposed to be welcoming, easy on the eye, attractive as well as functional. It's the difference between picking up a glossy well designed magazine that's well layed out or picking up a computer report, there has to be a blend of both. Long tables....= UGLY, it makes me want to leave the page as quickly as possible.[[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 23:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
:Honestly, open both revisions and scroll through them. Excluding a width adjustment which Litso mentioned would probably need to be done, the chart surpasses your revision's plethora of detracting pictures, broken columns, improper links and glitchy section headers, completely. Actually review both, you'll see. <span style="background:#000000">[[User:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#DEB887;">'''Alden Weston'''</span>]] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#7BA05B;">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 23:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


::I don't see what you fail to grasp about people not wanting some generic Wikia looking site when they browse. A generic mile long table is much more distracting than separating by album and it  looks cleaner too. [[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 23:11, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

::if to were within and article such as tour dates etc it probably wouldn't be so bad, but this is a portal to the tablature, this is the first thing people will see, I think it's just too unwelcoming, long tables are just ick.  [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 23:14, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

::I totally agree with Goodspeed and ‡-me-‡, I think the chart didnt look good at all
::[[User: Holy Wood|Holy Wood]]

:::This isn't the main page. The justice of this page isn't to welcome people. It's to chronicle tablature. What if people don't know what release something is featured on? It happens. Furthermore, the list I made should have even been alphabetized by song. I even wanted a sortable table, but it wouldn't display properly. Why does everything have to be compared to Wikia? Your method is Wikia. Charts are Wikia. Wikia is organized by people. It isn't some omnipotent entity that we can detract from with the simple act of not using charts. My method leaves room to include tabs for everything. Yours does its own thing, leaves out a lot of instrumentals, the final section isn't sorted the way the albums are, only noting what we actually have. People aren't supposed to have fun with this page. It's an index of links. You can either have a long, simple chart that conveys everything, or a long series of sections with headers, columns and links that are ineffective. <span style="background:#000000">[[User:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#DEB887;">'''Alden Weston'''</span>]] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#7BA05B;">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 23:48, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


*Ineffective? Funny- Out of the 12,426 times tablature page has been accessed, you seem to be the only one who is complaining about it. None of the other 12k users seem to find it as "ineffective." [[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 05:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


::The justice of EVERY page is to be aesthetically pleasing, welcoming as well as funtional. I personally think tables are archaic. Tables are only useful if they are easy to see and use, this table was so long that it lost anything that it made up for in fuctionality. As soon as you have to scroll, you lost sight of the headings, and are just left with: 

::Song title|Yes|No|Yes|No

::What that Yes or No meant was no longer easy to detect unless a user scroll all the way back up the page to see what column meant what, then scroll back down the page to find where they were originally looking and hopefully remember what they were looking for in the first place. If what they need isn't there, they are then faced with the same process of looking for any subsequent songs. At this point, if it were myself, I just wouldn't bother, there's nothing on the page that is visually appealing and nothing to even browse without having to wonder exactly what is what. Short tables with in an article are fine, long tables that just appear like a wall of text and are so long that they make the point of using them in the first place redundant are painful, both to the eye and to use.[[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 12:00, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

:::So change the words "Yes" and "No" to the name of the tab (i.e. Guitar, Bass, etc.). What I submitted was still a work-in-progress, not much different from the tables above in this very page, which now that I review, I'd love to see implemented instead. <span style="background:#000000">[[User:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#DEB887;">'''Alden Weston'''</span>]] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#7BA05B;">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 13:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


::::I don't mind that idea, just would prefer the plain table though so that the canvas is still visable, that way it will still suit the design :)[[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 13:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

==Tab Credit Information==

I posted a thread on the forum, but thought I'd make a mention here. Will you guys be adding the original and proper credit information for the tabs you post here? I think it's important to credit the guys who actually do the work to make tabs rather than just strip their info from their tabs - but also because it's good to be able to follow particular tabbers who are known for releasing high quality tabs.


In case you didn't notice, the latest tabs that we archived are credited. We have added a disclaimer encouraging the original authors to come forth for proper credit if they so choose to do so. [[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 13:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

:We were recently submitted a collection of tablature that didn't have credits attached to them. When we are aware of authors, we certainly credit them. However in this case, we just didn't have that information. <span style="background:#000000">[[User:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#DEB887;">'''Alden Weston'''</span>]] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|<span style="color:#7BA05B;">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 13:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Latest revision		Your text
Line 294:		Line 294:


−	::The justice of EVERY page is to be aesthetically pleasing, welcoming as well as ~~functional~~. I personally think tables are archaic. Tables are only useful if they are easy to see and use, this table was so long that it lost anything that it made up for in fuctionality. As soon as you have to scroll, you lost sight of the headings, and are just left with:	+	::The justice of EVERY page is to be aesthetically pleasing, welcoming as well as funtional. I personally think tables are archaic. Tables are only useful if they are easy to see and use, this table was so long that it lost anything that it made up for in fuctionality. As soon as you have to scroll, you lost sight of the headings, and are just left with:

	::Song title\|Yes\|No\|Yes\|No		::Song title\|Yes\|No\|Yes\|No