Editing Talk:Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death)

Can someone tell me how to run this "START" program or whatever it's called? I have the album (Holy Wood (In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death) ), and when I put the disc into my computer, all I get is a black screen with the picture of a cross made out of guns, and when I click on it, all it does is take me to the Interscope website. Little help? =o [[User:Raven the Ravenous|--Raven was here--]] 03:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC) 

:it stopped being active years ago. [[User:NickSixx|NickSixx ]]

The start program thing or the website? Because when I click the gun cross, it takes me to the Interscope website. =/ [[User:Raven the Ravenous|--Raven was here--]] 03:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC) 

== This article NEEDS a serious overhaul  ==

This article is MOSTLY well written, the introduction specifically is commendable writing. However, the meat of the article (no pun intended), the "Concept" section is fucking atrocious. It just rambles in a schizophrenic and not very cohesive or coherent manner (the randomly placed snippet on Coma Black being Coma White's opposite number on this album the biggest offender). 

I should know, I helped write it and revise it many many times over the years from the Wikipedia page where all the stuff here was originally copied. And the current version in Wikipedia isn't finished as well either. 

I think the concept section needs to be expanded and the concept itself explained in detail (Kadmon's journey, etc.). Where's mention of the fact that it's divided into song cycles and how that relates to the storyline, the many references to the Beatles's White Album either in the lyrics themselves (ie. You Say you wanted evolution/You say you want a revolution... from Disposable Teens which clearly reference the song Revolution 1) or in directly alluding to John Lennon himself and how both relates to Manson's criticism of the glorification of violence by mainstream American culture (as opposed to him) which both albums did. I believe Manson once also said that he intended for Holy Wood to be an industrial rock version of The White Album. What about the characters within the story? There's Adam Kadmon, but he's most likely only a collage representing humanity, and Coma Black. But what about President White (is he the one referred to as President Dead?), the King (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death &amp; King Kill 33.. an actual king or a pop culture reference to Elvis?) and who or what is the Born Again (or was that just a symbolic turning point in the revolution uttered by Kadmon). 

I also think the portion on Mechanical Animals and Antichrist Superstar shouldn't be here. There's already a dedicated page on the Trilogy (whereas in Wikipedia there isn't) so why shouldn't we just write in something to the effect of "To read more on the Trilogy, go here...etc"? 

I'm asking all this from this website because we're all supposed to be Manson fans - by extension fucking authorities on the subject matter and yet arguably Manson's strongest work to date lacks the wiki article (here or in wikipedia) to explain to detractors where they're all so wrong with this guy. 

-[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 03:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC) 

:Hi there again, and thanks for the questions/input. Yes, I agree the Mechanical Animals and Antichrist Superstar portions of this article should be removed and a link to the Triptych page as suggested. The lyrical references that you have mentioned should probably be noted under the Trivia heading. Regarding concept, [god]speed and myself have always had a very strong interest in the interpretation of Manson's work. However, in the interests of MansonWiki, we strive to keep information factual. I'm sure you can understand that due to the complexity of the Triptych there are multiple perspectives and there are many different interpretations. So unless you can find direct quotes from Manson, with references, we would like to steer clear of the ambiguous. [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡]] 08:31, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

::Here's a link I've found. Don't know how much it'll help but I feel with the 10th anniversary of this album coming up very soon, the article needs some major cleaning up.

::Linky: [http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.14.00/cover/manson-0050.html Into the Mind of Marilyn] - [[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 13:56, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

:::Consider the changes I've made today on this page, the Triptych and the Antichrist Superstar page the first salvo, nay, the first goosestep on the road to rehabilitation. -[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 07:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

As of September 5, 2010, I think I have perfected this article. -[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 17:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC) 

:Spoke too soon. The more I think I've perfected it, the more I find ways to improve it. [[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 07:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

== Changing a paragraph in the Concept section. Need second opinion  ==

I'll bracket and highlight the portions I've added. Admittedly, I was stoned on something really good last night when I wrote them, listening to Holy Wood. I find this method makes everything so much more meaningful and intense (as unconventional a method as it is). I was literally punching the wall with my fist during "Burning Flag", trying to get them to open. 

By the way, I saw on Babalon that someone quoted what I wrote on Wikipedia to interpret "The Love Song": "metaphors the father as the arm, the mother as the gun, and the children as the bullet". Just thought it was funny (so much more meaningful, see?). Anyway, for your consideration: 

The backdrop of ''Holy Wood's'' storyline revolves around the two duelling regions of "Holy Wood" and "Death Valley". Its protagonist is "Adam Kadmon", an abstract character borrowed from the Kabbalah where he is described as the archetype for humanity and the first Adam from which every soul is descended. He is an anti-hero and a "rebel from the waist down" from Death Valley '''[who is "having an intense love relationship with a .9mm high-powered rifle".]''' He is threading his way through Holy Wood, '''[a surreal but thinly veiled take on America where religion and violence mean exactly the same, JFK is the TV-martyred modern day Christ, dead celebrities are saints and Jackie O is Mary Immaculate.]''' His revulsion at what he finds causes him to trigger a revolution through music to rail against "the old deceivers" - the "bitter thinkers who buy their tickets to go find god like a piggy in a fair". But it all soon goes wrong when his revolution is exploited by society. It is notable that the tragic and ill-fated character Coma White (from ''Mechanical Animals''), which Adam has a quasi-romantic interest for, is referred to on this album as "Coma Black". At the record's conclusion, a defeated and disillusioned Kadmon is on the verge of suicide and can be heard playing Russian roulette with a revolver. His fate is deliberately left unknown after the fifth cock of the pistol. 

-[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 09:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC) 

<br> 

<br> 

Honestly, &nbsp;I think most of your analysis is more relevant in the Interpretations section of Babalon, where it is more appropriate as opposed to the Manson Wiki considering we strive to be a factual database for reference. Both '''&lt;me&gt;''' &amp; myself ('''[g]S''')&nbsp;have always been interested in analysis of Manson's work, and have done a massive amount of research into all things esoteric, influential, and related to Manson's body of work for years. &nbsp;As mentioned, either of us, &lt;me&gt; or myself could very easily write up analytical summaries of the storyline, however, I think that passing a singular version of the storyline off as point of reference for others to base their interpretations upon kind of goes against the idea of analysis, As you have to consider that most people will believe whatever is written, and will look no further than what they read.&nbsp;&nbsp;Like Manson says in Doppelherz, "Each time someone believes what I say, It becomes a lie." &nbsp; 

<br> 

What I disagree with int your analysis is that you make it seem that there are different characters involved, Whereas I might be more inclined to believe that they are merely extensions of the same character. Also, you can't necessarily state&nbsp;that Death Valley &amp; Holy Wood are separate places based on the Fight Song video, Who's to say that the video is not merely referencing the duality of "good vs bad" as mentioned in the chorus and throughout Manson's work?&nbsp; 

<br> 

I would be more inclined to think that one man's '''''Holy Wood''''' is another man's '''''Death Valley'''''. Much like Kurosawa's'''''High &amp; Low''''', ( a film which Manson referenced with the font of The High End of Low) &nbsp;The story focuses around the duality of two characters and how they are essentially based off of one another, Gondo's home that is perched high above the city below him is his oasis, while down in the busy streets, Takeuchi is forced to look up at Gondo's home on the hill and every day and face his own private hell, which was Gondo's heaven. &nbsp;<br> <br> 

While my interpretation may be completely wrong, it does open up room for discussion and may cause you to re-evaluate your views, which doesn't mean my version is any more correct than yours, but what I'm trying to illustrate is that you simply cannot tie down the concept of the triptych into a linear, or typical fashion. There are many key elements that are open to interpretation,&nbsp;&nbsp;such as the importance of Valentine's Day 1997 and the reason why it is played out throughout each album in the triptych, amongst other things, It's more of a subject for discussion than it is for summarizing.&nbsp; 

<br> 

<br>[[User:Godspeed|[god]speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 11:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC) 

<br> 

::There are two bodies in the concept section. One dealing with the state of then-current events in 1999-2000 which gave birth to this album and the other half dealing with the storyline itself, it's placement within the trilogy and Manson's interpretation of it. The first half, I believe, is pretty objective on my part, being heavily referenced from Manson's interviews or contemporary reviews of the album. I believe the sticky issue deals with the second half, especially the last paragraph.

::I will concede that it is pretty poorly written, however, what will we put in its place? We can't completely omit it as that would imply to some readers there is none. A lot people will also believe whatever is ''not'' written. I think at the very least, we need to come to a consensus on a basic, hopefully unbiased, framework in which to give people a point of reference with regards to the storyline. The ''laissez-faire'' approach isn't really helping either.

::I propose the reedited paragraph below as a quick bandaid until such time that a consensus can be made. Also use it as a template for the finalized paragraph:

::''Holy Wood's'' storyline revolves around its protagonist "[[Adam Kadmon]]", an abstract character borrowed from the Kabbalah where he is described as the archetype for humanity and the first Adam from which every soul is descended<ref>{{cite web|last=Quelland |first=Sarah |url=http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.14.00/cover/manson-0050.html |title=Into the Mind of Marilyn |publisher=Metroactive Music |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-10}}</ref>. His revulsion at the world he observes catalyzes him to start a revolution but it all soon goes wrong when his revolution is exploited by society and falls victim to "[[Celebritarian Corporation#The_meaning|Celebritarianism]]", Holy Wood's quasi-religion of celebrity-worship with a special emphasis on 'dead stars', called "[[Lamb of God|Lambs of God]]"<ref>{{cite web|last=Long |first=April |url=http://www.nme.com/reviews/marilyn-manson/3456 |title=Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death) album review |publisher=NME Magazine |date=2000-11-10 |accessdate=2010-08-26}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|last=Robinson |first=Charlotte |url=http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/m/mansonmarilyn-holywood.shtml |title=Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death) album review |publisher=PopMatters |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-22}}</ref>. Adam's romantic interest, the ill-fated daughter of President White, [[Coma White]], is notably referred to on this album as "[[Coma Black]]"<ref>{{cite web|last=Quelland |first=Sarah |url=http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.14.00/cover/manson-0050.html |title=Into the Mind of Marilyn  |publisher=Metroactive Music |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-10}}</ref>. At the record's conclusion, Coma Black is playing Russian roulette and on the verge of taking her own life. Her fate is deliberately left unknown after the fifth cock of the firing hammer<ref>{{cite web|last=Quelland |first=Sarah |url=http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.14.00/cover/manson-0050.html |title=Into the Mind of Marilyn |publisher=Metroactive Music |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-10}}</ref>.

::-[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 12:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

:::&gt;Proposing a change to the last paragraph (bold and bracketed):

:::''Holy Wood's'' storyline revolves around its protagonist "[[Adam Kadmon]]", an abstract character borrowed from the Kabbalah where he is described as the archetype for humanity and the first Adam from which every soul is descended<ref>{{cite web|last=Quelland |first=Sarah |url=http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.14.00/cover/manson-0050.html |title=Into the Mind of Marilyn |publisher=Metroactive Music |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-10}}</ref>. His revulsion at the world he observes catalyzes him to start a revolution but it all soon goes wrong when his revolution is exploited by society and falls victim to "[[Celebritarian Corporation#The_meaning|Celebritarianism]]", Holy Wood's quasi-religion of celebrity-worship with a special emphasis on 'dead stars', called "[[Lamb of God|Lambs of God]]"<ref>{{cite web|last=Long |first=April |url=http://www.nme.com/reviews/marilyn-manson/3456 |title=Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death) album review |publisher=NME Magazine |date=2000-11-10 |accessdate=2010-08-26}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|last=Robinson |first=Charlotte |url=http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/m/mansonmarilyn-holywood.shtml |title=Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death) album review |publisher=PopMatters |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-22}}</ref>. Adam's romantic interest, the ill-fated daughter of President White, [[Coma White]], is notably referred to on this album as "[[Coma Black]]"<ref>{{cite web|last=Quelland |first=Sarah |url=http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.14.00/cover/manson-0050.html |title=Into the Mind of Marilyn  |publisher=Metroactive Music |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-10}}</ref>. '''[She is taken away from Adam by Holy Wood to be turned into another Lamb of God (TV martyr). They would remember her martyrdom as "[[Valentine's Day]]". As Adam witnesses this, his disillusionment takes a dark turn and he takes one last stand as a haranguing demagogue, berating the people if "[they still] love [their] Guns, God and Government?". He then seeks out to "[[King Kill 33°|kill the king]]".]''' At the record's conclusion, Coma Black is playing Russian roulette and on the verge of taking her own life. Her fate is deliberately left unknown after the fifth cock of the firing hammer<ref>{{cite web|last=Quelland |first=Sarah |url=http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.14.00/cover/manson-0050.html |title=Into the Mind of Marilyn |publisher=Metroactive Music |date=2000-12-14 |accessdate=2010-08-10}}</ref>.

:::-[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 09:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

::::We are going to have to discuss this with the rest of the administration team. Your interpretations, on top of the full plate of work that we already have to do in regards to interviews and the site is just too much at the moment, So until the administrators can come to some sort of agreement on our position for analysis on the site, we are going to protect the pages.&nbsp;[[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 11:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)<br><br>

:::: Sorry Red but I have to agree with [God]speed on this, there are just too many edits to keep going over and over..You're also starting to head into a lot of grey areas that are really open to too much interpretation. You're implying that Coma White/Black, were real, where as there are opinions that she was just an unattainable ideal, or yet again a multiple/alternate delusional personality of ADAM. I can assure you that we're very grateful for your work here, perhaps if you would like to make a thread on our forum to discuss and analyse these topics we can then go over concepts et cetera and hash things out there rather than going over edits. :) [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 11:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

::::: I understand. I'll be very curious to hear very soon. -[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 11:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{talkheader}}
-__TOC__
-==START.EXE==
 Can someone tell me how to run this "START" program or whatever it's called? I have the album (Holy Wood (In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death) ), and when I put the disc into my computer, all I get is a black screen with the picture of a cross made out of guns, and when I click on it, all it does is take me to the Interscope website. Little help? =o [[User:Raven the Ravenous|--Raven was here--]] 03:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 17: / Line 11: @@
 I should know, I helped write it and revise it many many times over the years from the Wikipedia page where all the stuff here was originally copied. And the current version in Wikipedia isn't finished as well either.
-I think the concept section needs to be expanded and the concept itself explained in detail (Kadmon's journey, etc.). Where's mention of the fact that it's divided into song cycles and how that relates to the storyline, the many references to the Beatles' White Album either in the lyrics themselves (ie. You Say you wanted evolution/You say you want a revolution... from Disposable Teens which clearly reference the song Revolution 1) or indirectly alluding to John Lennon himself and how both relate to Manson's criticism of the glorification of violence by mainstream American culture (as opposed to him) which both albums did. I believe Manson once also said that he intended for Holy Wood to be an industrial rock version of The White Album. What about the characters within the story? There's Adam Kadmon, but he's most likely only a collage representing humanity, and Coma Black. But what about President White (is he the one referred to as President Dead?), the King (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death &amp; King Kill 33.. an actual king or a pop culture reference to Elvis?) and who or what is the Born Again (or was that just a symbolic turning point in the revolution uttered by Kadmon).
+I think the concept section needs to be expanded and the concept itself explained in detail (Kadmon's journey, etc.). Where's mention of the fact that it's divided into song cycles and how that relates to the storyline, the many references to the Beatles's White Album either in the lyrics themselves (ie. You Say you wanted evolution/You say you want a revolution... from Disposable Teens which clearly reference the song Revolution 1) or in directly alluding to John Lennon himself and how both relates to Manson's criticism of the glorification of violence by mainstream American culture (as opposed to him) which both albums did. I believe Manson once also said that he intended for Holy Wood to be an industrial rock version of The White Album. What about the characters within the story? There's Adam Kadmon, but he's most likely only a collage representing humanity, and Coma Black. But what about President White (is he the one referred to as President Dead?), the King (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death &amp; King Kill 33.. an actual king or a pop culture reference to Elvis?) and who or what is the Born Again (or was that just a symbolic turning point in the revolution uttered by Kadmon).
 I also think the portion on Mechanical Animals and Antichrist Superstar shouldn't be here. There's already a dedicated page on the Trilogy (whereas in Wikipedia there isn't) so why shouldn't we just write in something to the effect of "To read more on the Trilogy, go here...etc"?
@@ Line 85: / Line 79: @@
 :::-[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 09:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
-::::We are going to have to discuss this with the rest of the administration team. Your interpretations, on top of the full plate of work that we already have to do in regards to interviews and the site is just too much at the moment, So until the administrators can come to some sort of agreement on our position for analysis on the site, we are going to protect the pages.&nbsp;[[User:Godspeed|[god]speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 11:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)<br><br>
+::::We are going to have to discuss this with the rest of the administration team. Your interpretations, on top of the full plate of work that we already have to do in regards to interviews and the site is just too much at the moment, So until the administrators can come to some sort of agreement on our position for analysis on the site, we are going to protect the pages.&nbsp;[[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 11:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)<br><br>
-::::Sorry Red but I have to agree with [God]speed on this, there are just too many edits to keep going over and over..You're also starting to head into a lot of grey areas that are really open to too much interpretation. You're implying that Coma White/Black, were real, where as there are opinions that she was just an unattainable ideal, or yet again a multiple/alternate delusional personality of ADAM. I can assure you that we're very grateful for your work here, perhaps if you would like to make a thread on our forum to discuss and analyse these topics we can then go over concepts et cetera and hash things out there rather than going over edits.&nbsp;:) [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 11:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
-:::::I understand. I'll be very curious to hear very soon. -[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 11:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Here is the forum topic where you can discuss ideas for the articles <nowiki>http://www.mansonwiki.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&amp;t=1137</nowiki> {{unsigned|Godspeed}}
-== Holy Wood 10th Anniversary ==
-I'm celebrating the tenth anniversary of Holy Wood in my own way - by writing a proper wiki article for the record. Speaking of which, I've made great strides in that regard on Wikipedia. So how about importing it here? I know it's an old argument so, to assuage any reservations you admins might have, how about one of you check it out. It will only take 5 minutes to shoot through it.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Wood_(In_the_Shadow_of_the_Valley_of_Death)
-I am properly proud of it. -[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 21:19, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
-==Dead end==
-Is the page not showing up for anyone else? [[User:yawaraey|yawaraey]] <small>([[User talk:yawaraey|talk]])</small> 01:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
-Yes, there is a major glitch in editing. Which is why I originally protected this page and a few others. The only way to 'fix' the glitch in the article is to not add content :/  Litso & Scarshock are looking into it.
-[[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 01:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
-: Why the page was removed? We've lost over 25.000 of views. Also this page currently isn't showing for me. --[[User:M1shael|M1shael]] 13:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
-For the past two weeks there has been a major glitch where any edits to this page result in the content blanking. I've mentioned it to Litso/Scarshock and haven't heard anything back. Page views don't mean anything if you can't contribute to an article, and RedMarquis has been wanted to add content to this article but once anyone edits it, it blanks the page but the content is still there when you edit. I don't know what the deal is with it.  [[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 14:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
-:No more edits to this page until the bug is fixed. It's better to have an article that can be read than an article that no one can see. :/ [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 14:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
-* Well lets see if a few edits to citeweb and template cite book fixes the error, K? [[User:Godspeed|&#91;god&#93;speed -MansonWiki Admin]] 14:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
-== can someone add the alt tracklisting to the page? ==
-i was perusing Discogs.com and found [https://www.discogs.com/release/16618239-Marilyn-Manson-HOLY-WOOD-Unmastered-No-Particular-Order this] was posted last year
-idk how to edit or add tracklistings, source links, etc
-:[[Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death)#The "Unmastered - No particular order" promo version track listing|Done]]. Thanks. [[User:Scarshock|scarshock]] ([[User talk:Scarshock|talk]]) 13:51, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
+:::: Sorry Red but I have to agree with [God]speed on this, there are just too many edits to keep going over and over..You're also starting to head into a lot of grey areas that are really open to too much interpretation. You're implying that Coma White/Black, were real, where as there are opinions that she was just an unattainable ideal, or yet again a multiple/alternate delusional personality of ADAM. I can assure you that we're very grateful for your work here, perhaps if you would like to make a thread on our forum to discuss and analyse these topics we can then go over concepts et cetera and hash things out there rather than going over edits. :) [[User:‡-me-‡|‡-me-‡ - MansonWiki Admin]] 11:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
-==References==
+::::: I understand. I'll be very curious to hear very soon. -[[User:Red marquis|Red marquis]] 11:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
-<references/>