User talk:Sumer Schmetterling

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Re: More on bolding and editing line ups

Hi, i just wanted you to know that, as you said, i already found the "instruments - person" stuff on the lineup when i first arrived on the wiki a couple years ago, so every change i've done on the lineup it's in the wrong mode, so, i have to change so many things, but, even if slowly, i think i can do it. I will try to find out when it first happened, but i think it's impossible. I will change the bold font to normal as well. And i wanted to tell you a thing: there are several shows that i think are orphaned performance, (like the acoustic piano show in berlin in 2003 or the irving plaza show in 1996) but i can't do nothing about it cause i'm a normal user and the tours page can be changed only by admins, etc..What do you think? (MAFF'L (talk) 18:19, 10 March 2014 (CET))

Reply to MAFF'L i.e. bolding, Lineup and tour requests

On Lineup: I see it all the way back to the early tours so instead of making it Name/function instead of Function/name perhaps we shouldn't change that. But I definitely do not care for it bolded. If you want to start at Against All Gods tour and work down, I'll work on early tours until then and just remove the bolding. (Which do you as a user thinks looks better?) Remember to make the descriptions fit each particular show. If unsure, please just put the basic: vocals, guitar drums, keyboard. (All like pages need to look as uniform as possible.)

The Berlin 2003 show: Is here: 2003/04/11_Berlin,_Germany. Even though the Marilyn_Manson_tours#Grotesk_Burlesk_Tour says it started on 2003/04/11 it does not have this page link on the tabled list. Indeed, on the Grotesk_Burlesk_Tour it shows a pic of the show and called it a 'special event' and again mentions the tour began on April 11th. I agree it should go under orphaned performance. I'll addd it to the tour list under orphaned performance and am changing the beginning date on the GOAG tour pages to the 15th. The page itself could use some fixing up.

The 1996 Irving Plaza show: Is here: 1996/09/05_New_York_City,_NY And is showing as part of the Dead_to_the_World_Theater_Tour even though Manson himself says on the page that it was done as a favor and he did not consider it the beginning of the tour. I could see where that should be moved to orphaned performances. I'm in no rush to make major changes like that right now, however. Let's do the lineup reformatting first. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 06:18, 11 March 2014 (CET)

ok, ok...i will fix all the tours before the EMDM era with the lineup written in this way: 1990/04/28 Miami Beach, FL ("I'll work on early tours until then and just remove the bolding. (Which do you as a user thinks looks better?)" well, at first yes, but now that you showed me the original way to do it i think that the original manner is better)

thanks a lot for the advices! User:MAFF'L (talk) 16:00, 11 March 2014 (CET)

"MAFF'L are you working on these? As discussed the final thought was" yes, i am definitively working on the tours...i've finished the Grotesk Burlesk one, go check it out ;) User:MAFF'L (talk) 13:21, 29 March 2014 (CET)

live performance date notation

hi, Sumer. i've noticed that the live performances 1989-1994/1995 articles are entitled in the way of Marilyn Manson's MONTH DD, YYYY performance starting from a certain period (can't recall). these titles are different from what we use for 1995/1996+ lives. i'm curious: do you consider that all title notation should be generalized? i personally prefer YYYY/MM/DD CITY, STATE or COUNTRY because this style is shorter and easier to read, and such titles are perfectly sortable within automatically generated lists like category pages. what do you think? thanks. (scarshock (talk) 11:31, 23 March 2014 (CET))

In the urls that ends up making the page titles, the first way was how they first started making the pages which later changed to the more European recognized format of year/month/day. To correct them at this point we'd have to move the pages to a new url and that would be a lot of moving, I don't think worth doing so, although if there was ever a big update that needed to pull that info that might make it worthy. I wish the url didn't auto make the page title. Page titles with YYYY/MM/DD CITY, STATE or COUNTRY then subject doesn't look very nice on the page itself. Let me put it to M1shael, though. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2014 (CET)

I've spoken to M1shael he agrees the format should be YYYY/MM/DD CITY, STATE or COUNTRY then subject. To make this change however not only would every page with the Month Day, Year format need to be moved but on the info box for all made pages the links would have to be corrected. (last tour/next tour area) Let me know asap if you're interested in continuing that because I was in the process of making a lot of new tour pages for the early tours. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 03:10, 26 March 2014 (CET)

hi, Sumer. thanks for letting me know. let's do that this way: the new articles will now follow the YYYY/MM/DD CITY, STATE or COUNTRY style. i'll move all old-titled pages (Marilyn Manson's ... performance) with the redirects incrementally during my free time (so it may last for some time). since the idea is mine, i'll take care for rework/maintenance myself, and i'll keep an eye on the migration current state/TODO using search query or any other better filter/query you could suggest. are you fine with that? (scarshock (talk) 09:21, 26 March 2014 (CET))

Sure. All links have to be changed on the tour tables, too. I think a methodological approach is needed. Change page first then the links on the table? Links on the main tour page tables need to be change, too. If the links on the tables are done first we'd lose the links to the page. I can also do this as I make new pages but for now am taking a break. Are you good at editing wiki websites? Like for the page, not just background but layout?

ah, don't worry for that, because i just missed to say that i'll fix all redirects, sure, using the "what links here" search feature to keep everything consistent and accurate. a year ago (if i'm right), i had similar activities during the removal of excessive redirects for articles having improper title capitalization. for example, simply removed redirect pages like "Apple Of Sodom" changing the according references to "Apple of Sodom" everywhere. concerning the wiki markup language: yep, that's not a problem for me. (scarshock (talk) 08:11, 27 March 2014 (CET))

 :) Thankfully, it's just the early tours. There might be a few random pages elsewhere. I believe the Interviews are mostly the old format, too. I see what you're saying about category pages and agree. I also recently said something about the way Categories are named, themselves. If we did Era - Spooky Kids, Era - Born Villain then on the category page all eras would be together. The way we have it now, Born Villain is under B and Spooky Kids are under S. But then think of the edits we'd have to make on all those pages. I do strongly feel all pages, lists, etc., should be uniform. It also isn't correct how some categories are all capped and some are not. i.e. Spooky Kids era, Born Villain Era. If I make new tour pages, I'll use the new format. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 17:14, 27 March 2014 (CET)

>> I do strongly feel all pages, lists, etc., should be uniform.

it's a very good statement, and i fully agree with you

concerning the category names like "Spooky Kids era" and "Born Villain Era": i'm not a native English-speaker and my grammar is not perfect, as you probably might notice, so i don't want to establish the wiki rules that may not be optional (by "optional" i mean a possible choice of "Manson's performance" VS "YYYY/MM/DD" we were discussing a bit earlier), but i guess that lower-cased "era" is better and doesn't clash with a possible occurance of "Era" in a real title. an example of possible clashing: The Golden Era of Grotesque Era category probably doesn't look as good as The Golden Era of Grotesque era does for me. additionally, Wikipedia uses the second, "not-everything-is-capitalized", style. i also was thinking of a special guideline page where all of these stuff might be described and discussed, but now i doubt that we need such a page because the style of most of the pages in a certain area is a good guideline. and yes, i'm starting to migrate the pages we were talking about these days. (scarshock (talk) 20:12, 27 March 2014 (CET))

It's The Golden Age of Grotesque but point taken. I would just like for Category listings to be uniform. Too many people are doing it their own way. Look at Tour Dates: [1] on this page. We have 'Tour Dates' & 'Tour dates' each with many entries. What is happening is people are adding categories and titling them however they see fit. I feel though like you said, the wiki way is not to cap everything, but when you make a category it becomes the title of the page for it. Either way, if we had a consistent way of doing it, people would see that and conform more often. But let's leave this one on the back burner while we address dates. I like to see one project done before another gets started.Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 21:03, 27 March 2014 (CET)

oh come on, Sumer, it's The Golden Age of Grotesque, sure :) i simply couldn't find a good example to demonstrate "era/Era" clashing and intentionally substituted a similar word :P (scarshock (talk) 22:30, 27 March 2014 (CET))

lol

Scarschock, I think you missed my talk with MAFF'L be we agreed we were making all page now: Lineup: Person then vocals and/or instrument with none of it bolded. He is supposed to be working on this. I see you're changing that on the early tours. Keep it like on this page: http://www.mansonwiki.com/wiki/1990/04/28_Miami_Beach,_FL Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 00:55, 29 March 2014 (CET)

yes, that's fine, i only try to move the old pages and do not edit the content though (scarshock (talk) 22:22, 29 March 2014 (CET))

Scarshock, Only some of the dates were changed on the first tour? [2] I liked how before, it said Marilyn Manson & the Spooky Kids on the ones prior to Aug 1, 92. Also look at the next two main tour pages, they only have 2 columns. They should have the same table the prior and later tours have. :) Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 19:26, 30 March 2014 (CEST)

i'm not sure if i understood you correctly, but i use this search i mentioned above so i may receive unordered search results. i'll proceed until that search finds nothing in the "Page titles matches" section, so i consider that search as my TODO list until the end (scarshock (talk) 19:40, 31 March 2014 (CEST))

I'm saying if you go down the list of say the Local Shows tour some of them have been moved and some have not. Also, I wanted to ask you, in the first and last few tours, under the 'About', the first sentence goes: 'Marilyn Manson & the Spooky Kids' May 3, 1990 performance took place at the Reunion Room in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.' & 'Marilyn Manson's October 20, 2009 performance took place at the Zepp in Osaka, Japan. Then we have many tour pages that do not bold the date and many that use the October 20th, 2009. With the th, or nd added, (August 2nd, 1990) I would like these to be uniform, too. In Hey, Cruel World we stopped even adding this sentence at all. It seems the consensus on the wiki was to bold that date. That's fine with me, but I don't care for the nd, th, etc. That would be if you said On the 10th of May, 1990. You wouldn't/shouldn't add the letters to a proper date: August 11, 1992.

I'd like feedback on the bolding of the date, with our goal of making all the tour pages as uniform as possible. But the letters on day numbers really need to go. User:MAFF'L please read, too. I am also changing 'Lineup' as I go to 'Name - Instrument or Vocals' unbolded. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 08:18, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

as far as i remember, the "global" style primarily was "The performance on MONTH DAY(st/nd/rd/th), YEAR took place at VENUE in CITY, STATE/COUNTRY". this was a general template, no bolding the dates, no longer sentences, because these were too excessive and commonly duplicated the infobox at the right edge. an example. this style has been established in far 2007 and probably has been changed later but only for a not so big area of tour articles beginning from 1990. probably that was the idea or re-uniforming. but when i started my activity here in 2009, i added a lot of tour articles based on this style, the most recent tour dates were written in the style you mentioned though. 1) i can suggest to create a special MediaWiki template to uniform it, or create it myself. 2) i'm totally confused now, but let me ask: which is fine in English: October 10 or October 10th? (scarshock (talk) 18:00, 1 April 2014 (CEST))

an example of such a MediaWiki template (scarshock (talk) 18:25, 1 April 2014 (CEST))

I like that template. I agree the bolding of the date is unnecessary. For the use of ordinals: grammar.about.com & Remember: Ordinal figures before the month; cardinal figures after the month. Fourth of July but July 4.

'Always use ordinal figures when the day precedes the month or stands alone' 'Do not use ordinal figures when writing a date in military format or in letters from foreign countries: day-month-year. 10-02-2012 (February 10, 2012)' - specist5.hubpages. So it's the 4th of July but it's July 4, 2000. One thought we had that hasn't come to pass yet, is to make a 'template' or sample page of how each page should look like. So I believe the sentence should read like you have it, with no ordinals and no bolding. Agreed? Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 20:10, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

yes, agreed, sure. frankly speaking, i'm surprised that no one stopped me from putting the changes using "the ordinal style" for all these years, so i always believed it was totally fine. this style was also accepted by other people and obviously caused many pages to have improper date notation.
concerning the sample page for the lives: i guess it's a good idea too and that could be a good guideline for everyone. since all such pages usually denote the same kind of information, i guess that all pages could turn into a set of MediaWiki templates: for example, Template:AboutPerformance + Template:Lineup + Infobox + Setlist (with possible intro/outro sections if MediaWiki engine is able to support complex templates) + Trivia, etc. but i see it in the future, not now because it's just an idea to be discussed.
i'm currently working on moving the pages (it's not completed yet), and later i'll discuss with you the live performances guideline page and possible templates, maybe introducing more MediaWiki functions that are probably left undervalued so far (scarshock (talk) 08:54, 2 April 2014 (CEST))

Was going to start something in the sandbox: http://www.mansonwiki.com/w/index.php?title=The_Marilyn_Manson_Wiki:Sandbox&action=edit&section=1 but won't be able to for a few days. I asked and Harlequin said the consensus was to make the date bold. But we'll see. I think the dates because someone started doing it and others followed along. Is why we do need guidelines/templates/sample pages. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 09:08, 2 April 2014 (CEST)

Sumer, please let me move the pages myself, because i've already started on it, and i have some methodology that i use to fix all old links, remove dead links and redirects. i've seen your page moves, and then i've found dead links, so i had to clean up through move logs and fixing the pages having dead links scanning the move logs (especially for pages that are renamed without leaving redirects behind them). this is somewhat tedious. thank you (scarshock (talk) 12:45, 2 April 2014 (CEST))

I did forget to say not to leave a redirect on most. Okay, also the listings on the tables that don't have a page yet, need to be changed to the new date format, too so if someone should make a page it is with the new format. I have been working with these early tours and was wanting to get them done. While you're doing that, I might go to Support_for_Danzig's_Danzig_4p_Tour and change the table to match the 5 columned ones. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 18:18, 2 April 2014 (CEST)

yes, please, it would be nice! :) concerning the redirects: if you don't leave a redirect behind the page after the move, you'll about to orphan the article if you don't fix the links at the referencing pages. i spent some time to clean up for it. i usually did the following steps during the move:
* picked a "Marilyn Manson's ... performance" page from the search link above
* opened "What links here" in a new tab
* renamed the page according to the YYYY/MM/DD style
* went to the results of "What links here" and fixed all older links to new ones
* refreshed the "What links here" tab to ensure that nothing references the page anymore
* deleted the original "Marilyn Manson's ... performance" page as a deprecated one
nevertheless, i seem to have finished moving all the pages, i hope. :) (scarshock (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2014 (CEST))

concerning the ordinals: i've removed the ordinals from the dates in the local and self-destruct tour pages. they currently have the "about" section too different from page to page, and i'm thinking on introducing the MediaWiki template for it to ensure that all "abouts" are well-formed. however, this requires: the style to be agreed; really a lot of work if the style is fully agreed and accepted; maybe some special MediaWiki template exceptions if the "about" main phrase could contain more statements, like supporting another band, "someone's first or last performance with the band" and so on, because the nature of the MediaWiki is to uniform everything, and this uniform may not cover all cases... so it seems to be a huge piece of work... (scarshock (talk) 19:21, 2 April 2014 (CEST))

Thanks! There is still a lot about editing the wiki I don't know. Is true, also there is always an exception to the rules. I liked how in the beginning it said Marilyn Manson & the Spooky Kids on the first sentence but to say Marilyn Manson performed on every about section later would be very redundant. Speaking of, there is even the fact that on many pages it has an ==About== section and on many it just starts off with the sentence by itself. We should decide once and for all which way we want that. I think making agreed upon templates would be beneficial before we dig in making changes. We could make one or two in the sandbox and see what the other administrators think. Then I would like to make then linkable on the help page for casual users to see. Or perhaps we should just work on the date issue first. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 19:35, 2 April 2014 (CEST)

Look at: Marilyn_Manson's_independent_touring#Tour_dates entry for June 1, 1990. It says Fort Lauderdale (uncorfirmed: Boca Raton) & Weekends but when you click on it it goes to 1990/06/01_Fort_Lauderdale,_FL which says Fort Lauderdale at the Squeeze? That need clarification. Also I don't consider the reference viable. My book on page 91 says "Our first real show was the Reunion Room." and he doesn't mention a date. The Reunion Room doesn't have any connection to this date. I don't see anything that says 'first real performance' like we have in quotes on those pages. The table should say Fort Lauderdale & Squeeze for venue. Sumer - Senior Editor (talk) 03:52, 3 April 2014 (CEST)